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Post by heartstrung on Sept 28, 2014 5:29:26 GMT -8
There are quite a few male dollmakers out there and recently I found myself comparing the way they interpret female bodies alongside female dollmakers. I realised that some of the most overtly sexualised dolls are actually made by women whereas some quite modest and sensitive sculpts were made by men, whereas we (I) might have assumed the opposite to be true...
One example I think of immediately is Iki Alvarado - although his most recent dolls are off-topic because they are cast from silver - the sculpting is so beautifully done and the dolls, although female, are almost asexual in the subtlety of their form. In contrast, another dollmaker who is quickly becoming very popular is BIDoll. The skill and beauty of these dolls are undeniable, but for me at least, I find the sculpts too ...'sexy' (for lack of a better word!) and if I were to have guessed, I would have wrongly guessed that the sculptor was male!
Do you think our gender affects both the way we sculpt and also regard a doll?
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Post by nenethomas on Sept 28, 2014 6:40:56 GMT -8
What a great topic! I collect anime figures, and I've noticed that a lot of the female figures tend to be really, REALLY, er....well endowed. (For example: Dragon's Crown Sorceress, Super Sonico, and Kongiku ) And going through this new forum and discovering all these wonderful porcelain artists, one thing I have noticed is that the breasts seem to be of a moderate and elegant size. Could it be because (most) of the creators are women and the audience is (primarily) women, whereas in Anime and gaming the audience tends to be more male. Not trying to make a generalization--there are lots of exceptions!) Even Bi Dolls' beautiful girls --while they are 'stacked' they don't have the overtly exaggerated proportions that the examples I listed. I think I pretty much knew the first time I saw them that the sculptor was a female because of the sensitivity of the painting and sculpting on the face, and the details of the costumes. OTOH, I've been wrong plenty of times! Another example: Immortal Classique's dolls by Nune are some of the most graceful and sensitive renditions of females I have ever seen by either sex. I do think our gender affects how we sculpt and regard dolls and figurines, and for me, it also affects what I am going to buy and display around the house.
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Post by allurose on Sept 28, 2014 7:03:48 GMT -8
I do think the male gaze interprets female bodies differently, even if the end result is not always discernible. I have to admit I raise an eyebrow at some male doll makers. I remember reading on one artist's blog about how he had developed the body to have the "ideal" proportions that all females should have. It was not a realistically proportioned doll. The proportions were a cross between Enchanted Doll and Fashion Royalty, neither of which exist in reality. I was so disgusted that this person was making money on a doll brand founded around this insulting view of women that I immediately closed the website even though the dolls were beautiful. Since then I realized the artist may not be fluent in English and that might explain part of my interpretation of their words. But I doubt it was just that.
I also find that certain parts of the doll hobby, like Barbie collectors, are more often male. They are more likely to collect dolls without unboxing them, dressing them, customizing them, or playing with them as I am used to doing with my dolls. While in the ABJD hobby the majority is women who do customize and play with their dolls. I don't know what to think about this, it's just an observation.
Like in all areas of society, I think male collectors tend to dominate the hobby when given a chance. I observed this at a Barbie collector's meeting where the men constantly interrupted the speakers and insisted on rudely correcting them. To be honest I missed the mostly-female bjd people I usually hung out with. Even well intentioned men are socialized to be more assertive talkers and talk over women without realizing it. I have a hard time being that assertive of a conversationalist, so if there are men around...I probably won't get a chance to talk at all.
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Post by nenethomas on Sept 28, 2014 7:29:42 GMT -8
No, I do some 'eyebrow raising' of my own sometimes. I recently bought a MSD doll with the small bust. The doll also had the options for a large bust and an extra ginormus super-sized bust. But it was all on the same body so she had the hips and overall build of a 14 year old. But honestly, I also need to remember that I have done more than my fair share of pin-up type paintings, featuring if not completely unrealistic proportions, at least unlikely.
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Post by allurose on Sept 28, 2014 8:29:25 GMT -8
I don't mind dolls or other art with unrealistic proportions. I definitely have my share of it. The artist's intent does matter, as does how the viewer interprets it. But I do mind when people imply that the doll forum is ideal or desirable for real people. We have plenty enough body issues in our society already without more people saying we should look like dolls! But I think this is an overal societal problem, not solely the fault of Men.
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fawkes
Senior Member
Posts: 297
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Post by fawkes on Sept 28, 2014 8:34:12 GMT -8
An interesting but difficult topic indeed. As a male collector I find dolls with smaller breasts more pleasing to look at . It's interesting you should mention BiDolls, as the first time I've seen them I was at the same time attracted by the beautiful face of these dolls but also sort of repelled by the oversized breasts and the over sexiness - can I say that - of the doll. I think it spoils the overall shape of an otherwive beautiful doll. But maybe it fits the almost inhuman aesthetics the artist is aiming at - I mean "reincarnation" / demon-angelic dolls... As a hobbyist "dollmaker" I've spent a lot of time on the breast and tried to make a realistic one - not just two balls or two shapeless "humps" as we sometimes see. Actually it was one of the trickiest part to do. I think unconsciously we project on the dolls something we like in reality. It seems most prominent porcelain bjds - btw those I know of - have small breasts (except BiDolls and DeaVivente). If I remember well Marina Bychkova tried to give one of her dolls a bigger breast but immedialtely discarded it.
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Post by Tovah_Leah on Sept 28, 2014 8:40:02 GMT -8
I agree Fawkes, I am drawn in by the faces of BiDolls, but their bodies repel me. Their breasts to me look like they're ready to pretend to be in a push up bra.
On the topic of proportion, I think it is difficult to really judge on this, at least for me. Adding clothing to a doll will automatically add a lot of bulk, especially if embellished. A thin long doll seems to at least work to counteract that bulk, to some extent.
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Post by heartstrung on Sept 28, 2014 12:40:31 GMT -8
Nene, yes, I've noticed the same - though I know very little about Anime and gaming - that the women depicted in those arenas seem to be the more 'plastic-y' idealised version of a women. Personally, I get annoyed and bored by that particular depiction of girls/women with huge bright eyes and a youthful appearance that borders on childish, but with a lot of cleavage... It's like an inability to separate sex from beauty. Probably going a bit off-topic here, but I don't like to think that some men think that women want to aspire to that! Like we all want to sit around looking sexy all day long :rolleyes:: allurose, you hit on an interesting point there - about the hobby involving pastimes that are often designated 'women's things', like sewing and makeup. But, like cooking, when these things are part of an industry and careers can be made out of them, they become pretigious i.e, chefs, tailors/fashion designers, makeup artists etc. and often populated (if not dominated) by men! Fawkes, I actually had your dolls in mind when writing the first post (will you make a thread for your dolls?). I also like the maturity of your dolls. I do think that slightly older looking dolls can have a real elegance and grace I think you're right about BiDoll touching on the non-human end of the scale. It's like the uncanny valley response - they're just that little bit strange, enough for us to take a second look. Tovah, me too, I'm not a fan of those inflated-looking breasts! That's a good point about the slim dolls being easier to dress. You know, one of the things I found after making my doll was that after all that time spent engineering the joints to increase poseability, it seems no matter what you do, the movement is always frustratingly restricted by clothing!!
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Post by orchidsdesigns on Sept 28, 2014 13:13:25 GMT -8
When I was studying fashion design my course teacher showed us the difference between ideal/top models today and in the past. The "ideal" of fashion has changed from well endowed, curvy & feminine forms to very thin, stick-like twiggy bodies with virtually no breasts, very slim hips, no tummy whatsoever.
It was her opinion that as more and more top fashion designers were men interested in men that the bodies of the female models they chose to present their designs on began more and more to resemble the shape of their own "top beauty ideals" -> teenage boys, instead of fully formed women. Perhaps as most BJD have very close connections with the fashion world/fashion dolls they are far more heavily influenced by those forms as well. There are more and more artistic body interpretations emerging which I love, but at the start most of the dolls all had very similar proportions.
I actually really like the body shape of BiDolls, they ARE very sexy, I think because they resemble the form of a mature and curvy woman rather than a slender teen. My own partner always complains that all my dolls have tiny breasts (lol) and when I showed him my sketches for my ideal BJD he said, oh she's very pretty.... but where are her boobs? lol :-P
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Post by bibarina on Sept 29, 2014 1:37:26 GMT -8
I think it depends very much on what each artist is influenced by when they envision their ideal creation, and what they wish to convey. For example, Marina's dolls, whilst looking so amazingly expressive and lifelike on one hand, are not made to look like real people, more like three dimensional fairy tale illustrations that she brings to life. I think the body shape of her dolls and many other doll artists, both male and female is very sensual in an understated way. I guess if someone is more influenced by anime as an art form for instance, then this will be expressed in their work too, with a very different body shape. I personally prefer smaller breasted dolls because to me the lines are far more graceful and as has been said before, they are much easier to dress! But I am sure there are many collectors out there who like and appreciate the more overtly sexual stylised dolls. There are so few male porcelain bjds out there, but as more are produced it will be interesting to see how the male physique is predominantly portrayed, and the differences, if any, between male and female artists!
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Post by nightengale on Sept 29, 2014 6:29:05 GMT -8
I too, think that it is one's personal preference.
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fawkes
Senior Member
Posts: 297
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Post by fawkes on Sept 29, 2014 8:32:12 GMT -8
Fawkes, I actually had your dolls in mind when writing the first post (will you make a thread for your dolls?). I also like the maturity of your dolls. I do think that slightly older looking dolls can have a real elegance and grace I think you're right about BiDoll touching on the non-human end of the scale. It's like the uncanny valley response - they're just that little bit strange, enough for us to take a second look. I won't make a thread for my dolls because I do not consider myself a professional and there are a few things I'd like to improve - I've come a long way but I'm not 100% satisfied with them...not yet
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Post by belldandy on Oct 3, 2014 10:04:38 GMT -8
I think it depends very much on what each artist is influenced by when they envision their ideal creation, and what they wish to convey. For example, Marina's dolls, whilst looking so amazingly expressive and lifelike on one hand, are not made to look like real people, more like three dimensional fairy tale illustrations that she brings to life. I think the body shape of her dolls and many other doll artists, both male and female is very sensual in an understated way. I guess if someone is more influenced by anime as an art form for instance, then this will be expressed in their work too, with a very different body shape. I personally prefer smaller breasted dolls because to me the lines are far more graceful and as has been said before, they are much easier to dress! But I am sure there are many collectors out there who like and appreciate the more overtly sexual stylised dolls. There are so few male porcelain bjds out there, but as more are produced it will be interesting to see how the male physique is predominantly portrayed, and the differences, if any, between male and female artists! wow! I have been looking for this kind of explanation, I think this is what I was looking for in the explanation for her work. I have never really been able to translate artist's statement very well haha
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