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Post by allurose on May 21, 2015 9:24:46 GMT -8
I think it would be interesting to have a place to discuss the business concerns of making dolls or doll items. Let's do it here! Raise your hand if you are making dolls or accessories! /raises hand How do you determine your prices? What are favorite marketing approaches? Do you run the business on your own or hire accountants/assistants/shipping services? Also if it suits anyone, there is a group on facebook that is dedicated to this: www.facebook.com/groups/bjddollybusiness/ The thing that has been on my mind about doll business most lately is presentation. I find it fascinating how different artists intentionally cultivate their public presence. Two good and opposite examples are Larisa Morillo and Rafael Nuri. One posts progress pictures of every stage and is involved with media throughout the doll process. One posts polished photos of the completed doll with very rare progress photos. Both are very successful artists. Which do you prefer as a customer? Which do you prefer as an artist? For my jewelry, I find posting progress photos is a drag. I never seem to have the right lighting/camera setup ready and the photos come out drab instead of teasing like I would like. So I end up posting just finished photos. I don't know if this would be true for me making dolls though. With how much longer a doll takes, I might prefer to do nice photoshoots with partially finished projects. Looking forward to hearing all your thoughts. <3 |
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Post by Snegurochka on May 21, 2015 10:28:57 GMT -8
This is a great topic, Allurose! I'll have to think of how to answer the start of it - I haven't sold clothes in several years, and I am just starting to price my beaded dolls to sell. As for progress photos... Well, this is bad of me. I like to see other artists post them, it's fun to see what they are working on! But I really don't like taking them  When I am making a doll, I will show some photos after the doll is assembled. Then I show some after they are completely finished, with their outfits and everything. But I don't ever show pictures of them before they are assembled, and have a face and hair. I just don't like to. |
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Post by bibarina on May 21, 2015 22:19:25 GMT -8
Great topic! I am going to give this some thought and then post my thoughts! I totally know where you are coming from with regard to photos allurose! I have always liked the thought of photographing my progress but find it so time consuming that it falls by the wayside- all for the same reasons that you describe! If I had more space, and was a better photographer this may be different!
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Post by jealoushe on May 21, 2015 23:21:18 GMT -8
I think this is a great idea. I would be really interested in contributing to discussion around running a Doll business.. I'm developing a doll prototype at the moment and will hopefully enter the market next year.. As I live in New Zealand I will have to sell online to reach the wider doll market so internet marketing will be my main focus.. I'm at art school at the moment, as a mature age student, and part of our course involves setting up a website and blog for our work.. Photography is my weak point though so I would love to see any information posted on how to get good,studio quality results..
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Post by caracal on May 21, 2015 23:34:23 GMT -8
I love to see work in progres photos, they are extremely interesting (I have always wanted to know how everything is constructed and how things work  ) I take wip photos sometimes and I usually just use my ipad to take quick photos -they are not teasers, just wanting to show what I am doing at the moment (this happens usually when I need a little break of the stuff and give my mind few moments ro relax -with a cup of tea too of course ) I am doing some clothes now and then, just a hobby now -so doing everything myself (posting has to be done By my husband, since I am not able to go to post office which is far far away and I don't drive a car anymore. I don't do marketing, I feel like idiot if I try to make people buy my stuff. And pricing, that is a nightmare!!! Would want to offer everything almost free, so people would not have to be rich to buy them -but I can not give my time free, since I do need to pay the materials and postage and I need to get dolls to sew for. |
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Hasel
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Post by Hasel on May 22, 2015 1:26:59 GMT -8
I usually take progress photo's because I'm exited about what I'm doing and want to share (even when sometimes a project gets postponed/cancelled in the end >.<'' ) And especially with my porcelain it just takes so long it's nice to take in between photo's.
My biggest problem is where to put the dolls up for sale/market them. I know I'm an artist and should strive to sell work but Ebay or Etsy feels hugely impersonal to me and I really dislike that. Especially since my work is very personal and I also feel those 2 platforms aren't doing justice to the models, it kind of lacks integrety. But on the other hand, I'm busy exhibiting them here and there but more 'normal' people just don't get it, or don't have the money to spend on an artwork like this. I want to exhibit on specialised doll exhibits or at art gallery's but it seems difficult to get in to those (or they are just to far away).
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Post by domstudio on May 22, 2015 2:24:27 GMT -8
This is a really interesting thema for me too,as before seller.I take also wip photos with my iPad,but at the end i have my camera and a little/tiny box,what stay in the window and can shot pretty good photos with a natural light and with flash.
Many artist use the fb page for sell(If interested pm me : )),but on ebay have you chance get better price with an auction.
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Post by jealoushe on May 22, 2015 2:25:52 GMT -8
I have to agree with Hasel about the impersonal nature of selling online via Ebay etc. I too would rather place my work in galleries or similar but I agree that the art buying public don't really 'get' doll art and the work that goes into it.. Perhaps that will change as there seems to have been a resurgence and renewed appreciation of artisan craft in recent years.. I would love to see our dolls also positioned within the contemporary art market rather than just being confined to a doll collector market.. Not every doll maker or buyer would agree though as the 'play' and dressing part of doll collecting is just as important as the visual beauty to many..
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beau
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Post by beau on May 22, 2015 4:59:00 GMT -8
I'm not a doll maker or indeed an artist in any way,so that side of it is completely unknown territory to me,and while I appreciate your feelings about the impersonal nature of eBay etc,there must be nothing more rewarding to an artist who has toiled over something for hours maybe years to see the reaction of a "live" person when they meet your work for the first time,it's not always possible for someone to get to galleries/exhibitions etc,even if they are in your own country they are often in the larger cities. So I'll get to the point now  sorry to ramble,these outlets are often the only way people can get to buy a doll,I had a doll made for me after seeing one on etsy,and I have another on the way via Flickr,so personally I would like all you artists put lots and lots of everything on everywhere  that would maybe also address the very good point that jealoushe just made about people not "getting" doll art,she's right lots of people can't differentiate between art dolls and play dolls,maybe eBay,etsy etc would help people who don't go to galleries find these treasures,and like me,let them start to grow on them. Phew !! Again sorry to ramble,hope I made myself clear,going for a cuppa now |
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Post by allurose on May 22, 2015 9:39:42 GMT -8
I love to see work in progres photos, they are extremely interesting (I have always wanted to know how everything is constructed and how things work ) I take wip photos sometimes and I usually just use my ipad to take quick photos -they are not teasers, just wanting to show what I am doing at the moment (this happens usually when I need a little break of the stuff and give my mind few moments ro relax -with a cup of tea too of course ) I am doing some clothes now and then, just a hobby now -so doing everything myself (posting has to be done By my husband, since I am not able to go to post office which is far far away and I don't drive a car anymore. I don't do marketing, I feel like idiot if I try to make people buy my stuff. And pricing, that is a nightmare!!! Would want to offer everything almost free, so people would not have to be rich to buy them -but I can not give my time free, since I do need to pay the materials and postage and I need to get dolls to sew for. Caracal, your work is so good, you don't seem to need to market! <3 Pricing seems like a breeze to me in this business compared to my day job. My day job is helping parents and babies, which I would like to be able to do regardless of the family's income. Yet I must charge a certain rate or I can't afford to live. It is an eternal conflict and very stressful. It is a moral issue and eats at my conscience. Doll things are luxuries in comparison, so I feel much less moral quandary charging a fair price. I don't feel a moral conflict if people can't afford my stuff. Although it is still sad, and I would like people to buy my stuff! So I try to keep prices reasonable. Etsy offers this formula as a starting point for pricing: Materials + Labor + Expenses + Profit = Wholesale x 2 = Retail ( source) Example for a 3-strand pearl necklace for an SD doll (all rough estimates): materials: $9 labor: $22 (60 minutes at $22/hour) expenses: $4 (fees paypal/etsy, packaging material) profit: profit?? what's that?? LOL $9 + $22 + $4 + $0 = $35 x2 = $70 Well...I don't know how many of you have actually checked out my etsy shop, but I definitely don't charge $70 for a pearl necklace! I don't use the x2 for wholesale part of the equation because I believe it is unlikely that I will ever have wholesale customers in this industry, and this makes my pricing more competitive. The $35 price is indeed the price of the longest version of the necklace. So I think this is a good formula. Most importantly, I like that it forces you to pay yourself an hourly wage, which we artists just LOVE to shortchange ourselves on, don't we? But I don't believe art can be sustainable otherwise, not unless you are supporting yourself through some other kind of savings or income. I know it is not always so simple to price things though. A more beginning artist often has to charge less in order to make a sale. I think this is especially true for doll artists, unfortunately. But on the other hand, an artist that is more successful and well known can have a "profit" category or increase their hourly wage. $22/hour is really quite modest, especially if I pay tax on that income! And artists of a certain popularity can price themselves differently, using fine art formulas that I am less familiar with. |
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Post by bibarina on May 22, 2015 10:51:34 GMT -8
I can understand artists wishing to exhibit their work in art galleries etc, as it gives a certain kudos to their work, however galleries can be very choosy with regard to the works they display and it can be really difficult to get that first break. They often want to know what other galleries you have exhibited at, and if you haven't they may not wish to take a chance.
I think that Ebay and Etsy are great platforms for new artists to reach a wide audience. At the end of the day, we all have to eat and pay the bills right? And where else would you instantly access potential clients from all around the world almost in one hit? I do think as more artists sell their work and this art form becomes more widely known and accepted, that galleries will be more inclined to consider it as a credible art form...
Caracal- I love your designs and always look forward to seeing what you have made when you post on flickr!
I personally find it really hard to price my items, if I add everything up by the standard formula I always think 'I can't possibly charge that!' It's a real conundrum! However, if I am buying, I kind of expect to pay those prices, so it all seems so contradictory!! I guess a lot comes down to how confident in your work you are.....
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Post by allurose on May 22, 2015 14:19:03 GMT -8
I think this is a great idea. I would be really interested in contributing to discussion around running a Doll business.. I'm developing a doll prototype at the moment and will hopefully enter the market next year.. As I live in New Zealand I will have to sell online to reach the wider doll market so internet marketing will be my main focus.. I'm at art school at the moment, as a mature age student, and part of our course involves setting up a website and blog for our work.. Photography is my weak point though so I would love to see any information posted on how to get good,studio quality results.. Photography is SO important in online sales, especially luxury items. A good photoset must create "craving" in the buyer, because it is this feeling that the doll industry is built on. We have a thread for photography tips here! I just post some more ideas. And others can too! <3 |
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Post by bibarina on May 22, 2015 21:59:14 GMT -8
I just read through your photography tips again allurose, and they are really helpful. I struggle with my photography skills. I do have a really decent camera, but have not really ever taken the time to learn about it properly- I think this has to be next on the list!
It's so true that a good photograph is essential! I know for instance that if I am purchasing on ebay, if there are two items that I wish to buy that are exactly the same, price and everything- I will always click to buy the item with the best picture!! This is almost an unconscious act, but I know I do it.
Also, as a buyer, I have sometimes looked at some lovely looking porcelain bjds on Ebay or Etsy, but sometimes it is really hard to see the details because of poor lighting/ posing focus etc. It has always put me off, because if I were to spend that kind of money on something, I really wish to know exactly what I am going to get. I always think this is a shame, as the artist has put so much time and effort into making their doll, only to do it an injustice in the final stage.
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Post by allurose on May 23, 2015 9:35:34 GMT -8
I just read through your photography tips again allurose, and they are really helpful. I struggle with my photography skills. I do have a really decent camera, but have not really ever taken the time to learn about it properly- I think this has to be next on the list! It's so true that a good photograph is essential! I know for instance that if I am purchasing on ebay, if there are two items that I wish to buy that are exactly the same, price and everything- I will always click to buy the item with the best picture!! This is almost an unconscious act, but I know I do it. Also, as a buyer, I have sometimes looked at some lovely looking porcelain bjds on Ebay or Etsy, but sometimes it is really hard to see the details because of poor lighting/ posing focus etc. It has always put me off, because if I were to spend that kind of money on something, I really wish to know exactly what I am going to get. I always think this is a shame, as the artist has put so much time and effort into making their doll, only to do it an injustice in the final stage. My tips are pretty basic, but I am glad they are useful. I guess I figure if it took me years to learn the basics, I could at least write them down! I have had the same experience with photos on etsy and ebay. In particular, it frustrates me when all the pictures convey the same information. Like, they are all bust/head shots instead of having a full body shot, a shot from behind, face in profile, etc. It is not enough for the photos to be beautiful, they must also be informational! And for dolls I think videos convey a LOT about how the doll truly is and how they pose. I looked at every photo on the ED website but I did not fall in love with the dolls until I saw the video of Marina playing with the dolls. I love the BiDoll posing video for this reason too. |
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Post by bibarina on May 23, 2015 12:35:45 GMT -8
I agree- that BiDoll video just blew me away when I saw how she could pose. You made a good point about seeing the face in profile too- hardly anyone does these, and it is so important, if the profile isn't very good, then you are much more limited. Paperwhites have a wonderful profile for example, and this gives more scope for posing as you have shown many times in your photographs.
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When I am making a doll, I will show some photos after the doll is assembled. Then I show some after they are completely finished, with their outfits and everything. But I don't ever show pictures of them before they are assembled, and have a face and hair. I just don't like to. 
)
sorry to ramble,these outlets are often the only way people can get to buy a doll,I had a doll made for me after seeing one on etsy,and I have another on the way via Flickr,so personally I would like all you artists put lots and lots of everything on everywhere 