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Post by allurose on Oct 12, 2016 10:48:38 GMT -8
We have requested progress photos/photos of the full doll in good lighting from Rafael, who has so far refused to give them.
I have also requested photos and/or a statement from Pasha, but I haven't heard back from her. Does anyone know a good way to contact her? I used the email on her website.
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Post by ivdolls on Oct 12, 2016 11:22:20 GMT -8
www.facebook.com/PashaSetrova/Here is her Facebook page. Try to PM her. Also Rafael stated that only upper part of the doll is made, and she is still working on the rest of the body. "Dear Friends! I would like to share with you all that I am working on a new project. I thought a long time if the idea of making a doll in resin is right. The market and the conditions I am facing showed me that it would be a right idea to create the doll in this material. The dolls I am working on in resin are going to be completely innovative nothing close to what I made before not in shape not in size. I already finished working on the upper body and you can see the result. I am very proud of the shoulder joints that look very esthetic and possess great moves. I understand that there are a lot of work to come. But I decided to write this message because I go on a trip and I will have limited access to Internet for 30 days. When I get home the doll is going to be almost ready. I will have 30 days of resting at work with no Internet but full of creativity. Wait for my return around November 20th and I will show you the master model. Love you all, Rafael"
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Post by allurose on Oct 12, 2016 11:29:32 GMT -8
Thank you ivdolls. I will PM Pasha.
I understand that the full Ego doll is not complete. I am hoping Rafael will still be able to provide us progress photos. She did give us a few for Muha.
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tinyshirt
Senior Member
"I am doll parts"
Posts: 249
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Post by tinyshirt on Oct 12, 2016 15:51:13 GMT -8
This whole debacle is really disheartening. Pasha's Instagram has many progress photos some dating back about 50 weeks ago... There is some pretty persuasive photographic evidence that posits Pasha as the creator of this very unique, innovative shoulder. http://instagram.com/p/BGrpxv1A1UA
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Post by ivdolls on Oct 12, 2016 16:46:53 GMT -8
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tinyshirt
Senior Member
"I am doll parts"
Posts: 249
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Post by tinyshirt on Oct 12, 2016 17:17:22 GMT -8
yes, ivdolls you are right, It is hard to make a determination between inspiration and duplication. But, I think an artist with a reputation for producing exquisite, well crafted, beautiful work (Rafael) has a greater responsibility to stay true to her own vision. When these types of indisputable parallels exist I think it creates an unsettling suspicion about the nature of the work. Shouldn't the creation of art be about exploration, enlightenment, and the intrinsic seeking of one's own vision regardless of the public opinion about trends and popularity? This is where I am truly saddened by the whole thing. If Rafael was heavily inspired by Pasha who was heavily inspired by Triffony why can't they own it? Why does it have to become this type of contest for the salvation of reputation? I think the bottom line is about money and that should never factor into the creation of art. It is ultimately a question of integrity.
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Post by ivdolls on Oct 12, 2016 17:28:53 GMT -8
yes, ivdolls you are right, It is hard to make a determination between inspiration and duplication. But, I think an artist with a reputation for producing exquisite, well crafted, beautiful work (Rafael) has a greater responsibility to stay true to her own vision. When these types of indisputable parallels exist I think it creates an unsettling suspicion about the nature of the work. Shouldn't the creation of art be about exploration, enlightenment, and the intrinsic seeking of one's own vision regardless of the public opinion about trends and popularity? This is where I am truly saddened by the whole thing. If Rafael was heavily inspired by Pasha who was heavily inspired by Triffony why can't they own it? Why does it have to become this type of contest for the salvation of reputation? I think the bottom line is about money and that should never factor into the creation of art. It is ultimately a question of integrity. I know! It was so much easier 6-7 years ago when it was only dolls by Marina Bychkova, and now with so many different doll makers and dolls, it is hard to determine who is real artist and who is simply " borrower".
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Post by caracal on Oct 13, 2016 7:55:05 GMT -8
Very quick reply, need to walk dogs....about the Trifonova shoulder; it does not work like Pashas and is more like shoulders of Twigling and some Fairyland (Feeple70, Feeple60) resin dolls done years ago (must be other resin dolls also, can not remember now). But that joint does not allow the shoulder to move up like Pasha' s joint. Now must go out, will continue later....
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Post by caracal on Oct 13, 2016 9:16:07 GMT -8
Back from the walks Evidence shows that Pasha has done that joint before Rafael. I don't know if someone has done it before that, at least I don't remember seeing photos. But the construction is different in these dolls, so Rafael has only taken the idea from Pasha. BUT; remember January 27, 2015, when FHdolls introduced a new doll and Rafael attacked them; "Don't forget to include lawyer fees into your dolls price. As soon as you sell something we are in court because you stole my idea in putting crystals into porcelain and copied the forms....See you in court, dear." (And crystals have been set into dolls far far far long time ago...it's not a new idea.) So she obviously is against the idea of stealing ideas from others And she loves the idea of taking people to court (because we all must remember how many times she has mentioned court...)
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Sutton
Senior Member
Posts: 348
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Post by Sutton on Oct 13, 2016 9:52:32 GMT -8
Caracal is correct, the Trifonova doll shoulder does not work like Pasha's in vertical movement. I remember well the issue of the crystals in porcelain!!! All artists borrow whether on a small scale or a big one but the thing to do is to transform the borrowing into something in one's own style and vision. As a dollmaker, you know you are not "transforming" the borrowing enough when the artist you are borrowing from is so alarmed they publicly berate you and the doll community rakes you over the coals for it (on multiple different "borrowings" to boot). This alone is a really really big clue!! I don't see it as a two sided reputation saving battle. It is a one sided cry against the "borrowing" and the "borrower" stealing the limelight which ultimately cuts into the profits of someone's hard work. I agree it is eventually a question of money (if you live off your art). Money not factoring into the creation of art at some point, is idealistic and unreal. Sure, the actually process of making art should be free of thoughts of enrichment but the end result, if we are talking dolls, is put up for sale. So, yes, ultimately it is about someone who strongly thinks someone else has blatantly muscled in on some of their work and is going to profit from it, both in esteem and enrichment.
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Post by caracal on Oct 13, 2016 10:37:23 GMT -8
I am happy that Pasha is now at least the first one to sell her dolls . I hope she gets many orders for her doll (I would want to order too, but no doll-money in near future ) And yes, there has been smoke too many times....
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Post by fitz on Oct 13, 2016 12:00:07 GMT -8
I am actually quite a bit bothered by the photographs of the Rafaels doll, I do think they look to much like Pasha's. And just the fact that Rafael is taking white on black photos now, when she had been doing color before. Also the tangled in your own arms and neck cocked to the side pose in the pictures, I think there is a big influence here. Unfortunately it is really hard to prove these types of thing, and there was no recasting here, so it is just a matter of "being influenced" or copying a technique. In terms of a shoulder that can be raised or lowered, Kseniya Shabrova has been making this type of joint, and in mutliple ways for a number of years and in varying ways. She has a really interesting style, but is little known, she doesnt appear to do any mass production or even sell dolls that often. You can see her work on facebook. I am sure though that there was someone who did it before her and before that- etc. www.facebook.com/kseniya.shaburova?fref=ts or vertebra-p.deviantart.com/art/Joseph-and-Rose-1-628971081
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Dina
Senior Member
Posts: 354
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Post by Dina on Oct 13, 2016 12:41:21 GMT -8
Sorry I have no sympathy for any online accuser/flamer and nor for artists who claim all ideas as their own unless these are a pure recast and copyright infringement. Artistic creation has always been a form of community co-development. Like who created the first double-hip, the first hard wig-cap, the first animorphic bjd, dolls with silver inserts and so on. Impressionist artists lived in a community taking each others breakthrough ideas and expanding on them everyday.
Maybe both artists were both inspired by the some photo of a scrawny runway model with bony shoulders or by Popovy Sisters who have fine tuned the runway model look. Or one inspired the other which is the highest form of respect. Same with taking b&w photos which have been around since cameras were invited .. note to self, these b&w poses look great, I must try one myself!
And then to post it on someones own thread about their own dolls, smearing them, and posting it everywhere else they can ... blah
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Sutton
Senior Member
Posts: 348
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Post by Sutton on Oct 13, 2016 14:04:44 GMT -8
A bit of levity-- I hope this makes some people chuckle. While Googling some impressionist artists I came upon a page where someone amusingly describes plagiarism in their own words. "Plagiarism is what Hollywood and corporate music executives do on a regular basis to recycle the same movie scripts and songs to an uninspired group of consumers . . There is a reason for this of course . . Nothing can be too original, so that everything has a familiar feel to it . . Just like gas prices, they will never change because people are willing to pay for it . . Nobody cares about art anymore, just the label . . It all started with impressionism..."
source: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120229052355AAHw4r3
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Post by fitz on Oct 13, 2016 15:12:09 GMT -8
Maybe both artists were both inspired by the some photo of a scrawny runway model with bony shoulders or by Popovy Sisters who have fine tuned the runway model look. This is funny, because Pasha is a model (thin) and the doll looks just like her.
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